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Goliathus Inbreeding


tarm
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There is no obvious answer to this. Some says F3 is the max for many scarab beetles (which I read from Japanese web post more than 10 years ago), however, I've seen a friend at the time keeping F12 Trypoxylus dichotomus. These days, I haven't seen anyone claiming F3 is the max though... 🤣

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On 8/14/2021 at 8:18 PM, JKim said:

There is no obvious answer to this. Some says F3 is the max for many scarab beetles (which I read from Japanese web post more than 10 years ago), however, I've seen a friend at the time keeping F12 Trypoxylus dichotomus. These days, I haven't seen anyone claiming F3 is the max though... 🤣

Do you think G. Goliatus is whatsoever promising to breed at F3 inbred?

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On 8/14/2021 at 9:12 PM, Beetlesforlife3 said:

I havent read any papers on goliathus max for inbreeding but I've never heard any updates past F3. At the very with each inbred generation the pupal survival rate definitely decreases, hence the need for imports.

Thats a shame, they are incredibly hard to find F1 non inbred... shame.

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On 8/14/2021 at 7:59 PM, tarm said:

Do you think G. Goliatus is whatsoever promising to breed at F3 inbred?

Yes. Like I said earlier, I even saw F12. I would say it is okay, but can be highly depended on each individual and breeders.

Not a Goliathus, but I have a culture of Gymnetis thula, also under a tribe Goliathini (consider it as a cousin to Goliathus), and they were shipped from Lucas (of Insect Brothers) this year, couple months ago are originally from forum member Goliathus , and as far as I know these are at least second or third generation from Lucas alone. Also, I heard that most of G. thula kept by beetle enthusiasts are probably originated from the member Goliathus... Any clarification, @Goliathus, and could you please provide us some insights on Cetoniines inbreeding?

And it is quite difficult to find any F1 since it is not a species naturally occurring in the U.S., but as it has been legalized now, and more and more people carries it, I'm sure there will be more F1s being available. I believe larvae offered by Lucas of Insect Brothers are F1 though.

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On 8/14/2021 at 10:12 PM, JKim said:

Yes. Like I said earlier, I even saw F12. I would say it is okay, but can be highly depended on each individual and breeders.

Not a Goliathus, but I have a culture of Gymnetis thula, also under a tribe Goliathini (consider it as a cousin to Goliathus), and they were shipped from Lucas (of Insect Brothers) this year, couple months ago are originally from forum member Goliathus , and as far as I know these are at least second or third generation from Lucas alone. Also, I heard that most of G. thula kept by beetle enthusiasts are probably originated from the member Goliathus... Any clarification, @Goliathus, and could you please provide us some insights on Cetoniines inbreeding?

And it is quite difficult to find any F1 since it is not a species naturally occurring in the U.S., but as it has been legalized now, and more and more people carries it, I'm sure there will be more F1s being available. I believe larvae offered by Lucas of Insect Brothers are F1 though.

That is promising especially with how expensive pairs are! My plan then would likely be to buy a pair and rear as such then supplement bloodlines with said F1 larva.

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Honestly I feel like the "inbreeding" effects have more to do with long term husbandry issues and lapses in care than actual genetics, happens way more often than you'd think, especially to keepers that collect many species and don't necessarily baby species they've been breeding for a while. Most insects can take an incredible amount of genetic depression, and even cousins bred back to each other would probably all that is needed to restore any genetic diversity lost...

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On 8/14/2021 at 12:05 PM, tarm said:

How many generations can Goliathus inbreee before problems are obvious? I've seen contradictory claims from F3 to F6-F8! Does anyone have any evidence? 

Ultimate Guide p. 77

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On 8/16/2021 at 6:04 PM, Dynastes said:

Ultimate Guide p. 77

Is it possible the F12 picture isn't all inbred generations? I don't see anything noting either beetle is inbred each generation - possibly missed something. 

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On 8/14/2021 at 10:38 PM, Hisserdude said:

Honestly I feel like the "inbreeding" effects have more to do with long term husbandry issues and lapses in care than actual genetics, happens way more often than you'd think, especially to keepers that collect many species and don't necessarily baby species they've been breeding for a while. Most insects can take an incredible amount of genetic depression, and even cousins bred back to each other would probably all that is needed to restore any genetic diversity lost...

Based on my own experiences with breeding insects over the past 30 years, I am totally in agreement with this statement.

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On 8/16/2021 at 7:49 PM, tarm said:

Is it possible the F12 picture isn't all inbred generations? I don't see anything noting either beetle is inbred each generation - possibly missed something. 

F1 is the first offspring or filial generation; F2 is the second; and so on. Successive generations of progeny.

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On 8/16/2021 at 5:49 PM, tarm said:

Is it possible the F12 picture isn't all inbred generations? I don't see anything noting either beetle is inbred each generation - possibly missed something. 

Like @Dynastes says, F12 means inbred for twelve generations... If you add new blood to the culture you have to start over and mark them as F1 since you have added wild blood to the culture and are essentially starting all over again genetically.

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