Types of Kinshi

[The Mantis Menagerie]

I have read that there are two types of fungi that are typically used to make kinshi for beetles. The king oyster mushroom (Pleurotus eryngii), and turkey-tail (Trametes versicolor) is the other. Which species of fungi are best for which species of stag beetles? Also, should these fungi be grown in the sawdust used to make flake soil, or can the beetles use it even if it is grown on a different substrate? 

 

[JKim]

It is pretty difficult question to answer because it require a lot of knowledge to answer and understanding the answer.

Also, there are more than just two mushroom kinds for kinishi. I don't aware of common names for them:
Pleurotus sajor-caju, Tyromyces zonatulus, Pleurotus pulmonarius, Pleurotus eryngii, Pleurotus ostreatus, Coriolus brevis, Coriolus versicolor (Trametes versicolor), Fomes fomentarius,  Daedaleopsis tricolor, Lenziltes betulina.

The Pleurotus species are all the mostly common kinishi used for stag beetle rearing including Genus Dorcus (including Serrognathus) as well as Tyromyces zonatulus. T. zonatulus is very similar one to the Pleurotus, by the way.

Those Coriolus species of mushrooms are for stag beetle Genus Allotopus and Mesotopus. These two genera and species are known to only survive in Coriolus kinishi. Also, some uses this one for Dorcus hopei as well. I'm assuming the Allotopus and Mesotopus are the picky ones, while Dorcus has a large variety of choices

Listed below are all commercial kinishi bottle brands from Japan:

Dorcus-B, Dorcus Hyper (Fujikon), Oohira-kinishi (Doctor Mori), Deburo (Fujikon), Premium Mush-Effect (Fujikon), Pro-Bio (Fujikon), etc.

All are used for Dorcus species like Dorcus hopei, Dorcus grandis, Dorcus antaeus, Dorcus titanus, and other Dorcus spp. Dorcus Hyper and Deburo are also known to be good for Prosopocoilus species.

The base of substrate (which tree species) depends on the species of mushroom. They may look same oaks, but there are tons of different species available for oaks, such as Fagus engleriana, Quercus serrata, etc. Coriolus requires something closer to Fagus, while Pleurotus works with Quercus. This information may not be available in English elsewhere. I noted these from Japanese and Korean bloggers the other day.

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

The primary Lucanidae species I was looking to rear were Dorcus titanus, Phalacrognathus muelleri, and Lucanus elaphus. I will plan to grow Pleurotus eryngii for the D. titanus, but I did not see any mention of P. muelleri or L. elaphus. What species of mycelium do they prefer? 

Am I correct in my understanding of your post that if the fungi can grow on the wood, then the beetles can utilize it? Would it therefore be possible to grow some of the more polyphagous mushroom species, such as P. eryngii, on aspen and other woods that can be fermented into flake soil? 

 

[JKim]

Both Dorcus titanus and Phalacrognathus muelleri are known to do well on Pleurotus. I haven't heard much for Lucanus, but I'm aware that kinishi for Prosopocoilus goes same for Lucanus.

"if the fungi can grow on the wood, they the beetles can utilize it?"

Are you asking me feeding the mushroom inoculated log to the beetle larvae? I'm not sure if I'm understanding your question correctly, so I'll just leave a long explanation:

(1) mushroom (for harvesting purpose) can be inoculated to freshly cut log (that has been cut for a month to two) has full of nutrient with rock hardness. Larvae cannot feed on this thing as stag beetle larvae can't basically breakdown the wood.

(2) I don't know if you ever heard of kinishi rotten log(for egg laying). It is a rotten log (or log that mushroom has been harvested for years) with mushroom inoculated again by using kinishi available for beetle rearing in market. This thing is completely different from (1) above. The log itself is different. One for egg laying has no nutrient as mushroom has been harvested for several years. It become very soft, and that is what you would use for kinishi inoculation again to get the freshly hatched larvae (laid by female in the wood) starts to feed on kinishi right off the start.

(3) Depending on mushroom species, mycelium can be inoculated to many different bases. Some can even be inoculated on cardboard papers (I'm talking about edible mushrooms!!). Pleurotus is known to easily be inoculated in freshly cut log, substrate, as well as other available materials. It may depends per the "form of mycelium." I'm aware that you can inoculate substrate using liquid culture, plug, and mycelium on dried seeds. You just have to sterilize it properly. You can inoculate freshly cut log using plug (generally) and substrate (that you have previously inoculated and being active).

*By the way, inoculation is a similar term to "fermentation."
**Also, substrate is what I meant for your "flake soil."
***Any additional question/discussion, could you please quote my post so, hopefully, I can receive the email notification. Since this is your original post, I think you get automatic notification even without "quote."

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

Both Dorcus titanus and Phalacrognathus muelleri are known to do well on Pleurotus. I haven't heard much for Lucanus, but I'm aware that kinishi for Prosopocoilus goes same for Lucanus.

"if the fungi can grow on the wood, they the beetles can utilize it?"

Are you asking me feeding the mushroom inoculated log to the beetle larvae? I'm not sure if I'm understanding your question correctly, so I'll just leave a long explanation:

(1) mushroom (for harvesting purpose) can be inoculated to freshly cut log (that has been cut for a month to two) has full of nutrient with rock hardness. Larvae cannot feed on this thing as stag beetle larvae can't basically breakdown the wood.

(2) I don't know if you ever heard of kinishi rotten log(for egg laying). It is a rotten log (or log that mushroom has been harvested for years) with mushroom inoculated again by using kinishi available for beetle rearing in market. This thing is completely different from (1) above. The log itself is different. One for egg laying has no nutrient as mushroom has been harvested for several years. It become very soft, and that is what you would use for kinishi inoculation again to get the freshly hatched larvae (laid by female in the wood) starts to feed on kinishi right off the start.

(3) Depending on mushroom species, mycelium can be inoculated to many different bases. Some can even be inoculated on cardboard papers (I'm talking about edible mushrooms!!). Pleurotus is known to easily be inoculated in freshly cut log, substrate, as well as other available materials. It may depends per the "form of mycelium." I'm aware that you can inoculate substrate using liquid culture, plug, and mycelium on dried seeds. You just have to sterilize it properly. You can inoculate freshly cut log using plug (generally) and substrate (that you have previously inoculated and being active).

*By the way, inoculation is a similar term to "fermentation."
**Also, substrate is what I meant for your "flake soil."
***Any additional question/discussion, could you please quote my post so, hopefully, I can receive the email notification. Since this is your original post, I think you get automatic notification even without "quote."

I wasn't looking to innoculate logs, but I was looking to see if the mycelium could was safe for beetles if grown on other types of wood sawdust. 

 

[JKim]

 I wasn't looking to innoculate logs, but I was looking to see if the mycelium could was safe for beetles if grown on other types of wood sawdust. 

Okay, I must have been trying to go too deep and got confused. Then are you asking if (and if) certain mushroom species can grow on white oak log, then is it safe to grow it in white oak substrate, and maybe other tree substrate as well?

This completely depends. Some mushroom species do well on hardwood while some on softwood. Some do well on substrate and animal manure or soil, while they can't grow on logs at all. It all depends on mushroom species, as well as variation, breed, etc. You might want to search whether the P. eryngii works well for hardwood or softwood. To put it simple, oak, maple, popular are all hardwoods while pines are softwoods. And also, look up if there is any information and records of P. eryngii mycelium inoculation onto substrate. People these days grow mushroom on substrate (in a bag) than logs because it save space, time, and things are so much easier.

Before that, I think I need to mention that true mushroom species used for beetle rearing is actually NOT A PURE SPECIES of mushroom. It has been sorted and selected a particular gene (Search for DNA Selection and GMO for more detailed information and also search for "breed" as in dog breed) But I'm aware the mycelium from eBay, Amazon, or elsewhere still do work okay for beetles. (Think it as an okay-alternative, just not close enough to the Japanese commercial kinishi).

So probably an answer to your question is  yes, it is safe enough. If this still does not answer your question, please try make me understand what your point is with, probably, examples and such.

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

As I understand the regulations, it is illegal to import mushroom mycelium on wood substrates into the US, so I will have to substitute the P. eryngii mycelium that is used to produce mushrooms for human consumption. Do you know if the mycelium used in kinshi (or is it spelled kinishi?) is able to produce fruiting bodies? If so, then according to APHIS, it might be able to be imported legally from Japan provided it is not considered to pose any risk to agriculture. 

I will just stick to oak substrate since I am already using a sub-ideal variety of mycelium. 

 

[JKim]

As I understand the regulations, it is illegal to import mushroom mycelium on wood substrates into the US, so I will have to substitute the P. eryngii mycelium that is used to produce mushrooms for human consumption. Do you know if the mycelium used in kinshi (or is it spelled kinishi?) is able to produce fruiting bodies? If so, then according to APHIS, it might be able to be imported legally from Japan provided it is not considered to pose any risk to agriculture. 

I will just stick to oak substrate since I am already using a sub-ideal variety of mycelium. 

You are correct. As mushrooms, or fungi, are living organisms, it cannot be imported into the US without permit. I don't know what APHIS stated, and I do not know whether you can freely import it without permit. There are all kinds of permit as well as levels of permit. Levels I meant here are: (1)You can freely import anytime, (2)That particular organism can be imported, but person importing has to report it ahead of importation, etc.

You will have to contact NO ONE other than APHIS regarding to this. But as far as I know, the commercially available kinishi for beetle rearing from Japan cannot be imported to the US. Don't ask Internet experts for legal matters. Ask APHIS if you can import mycelium of XXXXX(mushroom name both in English and Latin with variation) from Japan in form of XXX(liquid, substrate, whatever, and if you are importing commercially available kinishi, then have to provide what substrate it is, like "oak") and see what they tell you. What I'm aware of regarding to importation, you do need to fill out document even if it has been generally permitted to be imported to the US. Also, As I know, the US does not allow importation of any RAW OAK TREES from abroad, so you might want to check that out as well. (this is what I found out over 10 years ago, so may not be valid anymore)

The kinishi for beetle rearing sure can do fruit mushrooms, which we know of. Of course, as it is mushroom after all. Depending on a species, the condition for fruiting can vary. If you keep your kinishi in certain temperature level, it will start to fruit, which is not a good thing at all for rearing.

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import-information/permits/regulated-organism-and-soil-permits/sa_plant_pathogens/ct_fungi_faqs

According to the link above, kinishi should fall under the wood category. It looks like it might be possible to import fruiting bodies and cultivate the spores. 

 

[JKim]

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import-information/permits/regulated-organism-and-soil-permits/sa_plant_pathogens/ct_fungi_faqs

According to the link above, kinishi should fall under the wood category. It looks like it might be possible to import fruiting bodies and cultivate the spores. 

Q. I would like to import mushroom spawn for mushroom production. Do I need a permit?
A. If it is not spawn of a harmful species, no PPQ 526 Permit is required from us. Please let us know what species you want to import, and we will tell you whether a PPQ 526 Permit is required.

The one who decides whether it is a harmful species or not is an agent in APHIS. so you still have to contact them to figure out whether the particular mushroom spawn (or kinishi) is harmful or not.

Q. I want to import mushrooms for consumption (eating). Do I need a permit?
A. No PPQ permit is required for mushrooms for consumption. The mushrooms must be free of soil, wood/wood chips, pests and diseases and will be inspected at the U.S. port of entry.

The mushroom for consumption is a mushroom with shape of what we know of, that is harvested (and probably) packaged. Not a mycelium or a fungal culture that is "alive."

Q. I would like to import mushroom spawn from China or other countries into the U.S. Do I need a permit?
A. You need to tell us the genus and species of the fungus. Then we will determine if a PPQ 526 Permit is required.

This is what I mean here. The APHIS will determine whether it is harmful or not and see if it requires permit.

As I mentioned on previous reply, you will have to contact the APHIS and let them know that you are interested in importing a mushroom culture from Japan that is inoculated on oak substrate (or wood chips, if APHIS people prefers to call that way). Although the information you provided via link says the mushroom allowed for importation (without permit) must be away from free of soil, wood/wood chips, pests and diseases. Therefore what you are trying to import, the kinishi with substrate is not properly described in the link you provided. The best option is, as I mentioned, contact the APHIS office. Also, if you are willing to import, you might have to find someone in Japan to also go through the paperwork together so that he can legally export it to the U.S.

I'm just relaying the information that I know of. I'm not suggesting anything illegal here, instead, asking you follow the law in case you get in trouble for trying to enjoy your hobby.

 

[JKim]

There is an alternative way to acquire kinishi within the U.S. You can easily find P. eryngii culture available on Internet like eBay or Amazon. The culture here, I meant, the culture inoculated on coffee waste. It costs about $20-50, depending on supplier, size, species, etc. It can be pricey for such size and the base (coffee waste = basically a garbage), but you can inoculate substrate using that culture that is already inoculated on coffee waste. Sterilization is surely an important FIRST step to take. I've seen couple of my colleagues doing that successfully.

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

The mushroom for consumption is a mushroom with shape of what we know of, that is harvested (and probably) packaged. Not a mycelium or a fungal culture that is "alive."

I was thinking that fruiting bodies of the kinishi fungi might fall under the mushroom for consumption category since Pleurotus eryngii is edible (although they never said that it had to be for human consumption). I have never tried to grow the spores out of store-bought mushrooms, but I thought it might be possible to revive the fungi after importation and grow the kinishi fungi from a harvested fruiting body. 

I'm just relaying the information that I know of. I'm not suggesting anything illegal here, instead, asking you follow the law in case you get in trouble for trying to enjoy your hobby.

I do my best to follow the USDA laws and regulations, but mushroom importation is something new to me that I will need to research more if I actually want to understand the laws for importing kinishi. Currently, I am even looking into making a APHIS-inspected containment facility room to house exotic beetles and mantids, and this means I need to be extra careful to follow every rule. 

There is an alternative way to acquire kinishi within the U.S. You can easily find P. eryngii culture available on Internet like eBay or Amazon.

I thought these cultures were inferior to true kinishi because you said, "true mushroom species used for beetle rearing [are] actually NOT A PURE SPECIES of mushroom." If those cultures work decently well, then I can just order some of those. 

 

[JKim]

Q. I want to import mushrooms for consumption (eating). Do I need a permit?
A. No PPQ permit is required for mushrooms for consumption. The mushrooms must be free of soil, wood/wood chips, pests and diseases and will be inspected at the U.S. port of entry.

The mushroom for consumption is a mushroom with shape of what we know of, that is harvested (and probably) packaged. Not a mycelium or a fungal culture that is "alive."

I was thinking that fruiting bodies of the kinishi fungi might fall under the mushroom for consumption category since Pleurotus eryngii is edible (although they never said that it had to be for human consumption). I have never tried to grow the spores out of store-bought mushrooms, but I thought it might be possible to revive the fungi after importation and grow the kinishi fungi from a harvested fruiting body.

Yes you can revive(?) the culture from the spores of store-bought mushroom if it is fresh enough. If you purchased it from local farmers, probability can go up. I tried Wal-Mart mushrooms couple times to get [spore prints] to see if store-bought mushroom has enough spores to actually initiate the culture, but wasn't very successful in my case.

I'm just relaying the information that I know of. I'm not suggesting anything illegal here, instead, asking you follow the law in case you get in trouble for trying to enjoy your hobby.

I do my best to follow the USDA laws and regulations, but mushroom importation is something new to me that I will need to research more if I actually want to understand the laws for importing kinishi. Currently, I am even looking into making a APHIS-inspected containment facility room to house exotic beetles and mantids, and this means I need to be extra careful to follow every rule.

I'm sorry if you felt offended, I said this to tell you that I'm trying to direct you the most safest way (in law).

There is an alternative way to acquire kinishi within the U.S. You can easily find P. eryngii culture available on Internet like eBay or Amazon. The culture here, I meant, the culture inoculated on coffee waste. It costs about $20-50, depending on supplier, size, species, etc. It can be pricey for such size and the base (coffee waste = basically a garbage), but you can inoculate substrate using that culture that is already inoculated on coffee waste. Sterilization is surely an important FIRST step to take. I've seen couple of my colleagues doing that successfully.

I thought these cultures were inferior to true kinishi because you said, "true mushroom species used for beetle rearing [are] actually NOT A PURE SPECIES of mushroom." If those cultures work decently well, then I can just order some of those. 

Yes, the new method I suggested is an alternative way. It is not the same thing as those commercially available kinishi in Japan. However, you can still use it, and it works okay. If what you are trying to do is not getting 90mm of Dorcus hopei, which even only few Japanese has succeeded, but maybe something big enough to be called "big." It should be okay. But, of course, the kinishi alone can't do much to grow your beetles larger. You need to know how to control temperature, humidity, etc.

I stated this alternative way, but I barely know how one successfully transfer the coffee waste culture to substrate to inoculate and extend the culture size. I only know to sterilize the substrate well before new inoculation, and you have to store it in dark, with a certain temperature/humidity. You might want to contact someone with an exceptional experience on handling kinishi.

I know this much, but I honestly barely handled kinishi, because I'm not interested in sizes of beetles, and I'm more into scarab beetles that Lucanids. Also, as I started my beetle rearing hobby since my childhood in South Korea, where at least, better to keep beetles as pet than the US, I just naturally learned a lot of things from friends and colleagues including many beetle store owners.

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

I'm sorry if you felt offended, I said this to tell you that I'm trying to direct you the most safest way (in law).

I am not offended at all, and I appreciate your advice on APHIS regulations. You have given me a lot of information on kinishi.