Interested in Megasoma Mars

Feeds upon “plant matter”. All foreign rhino/stag beetles are illegal. You can get native species that are beautiful and impressive though if you are intent on getting beetles.

 
the_cream_man said:
@JunkaiWangisme I keep hearing mixed things regarding what is legal in the US with domestic beetle species-- do you know?
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The actual law is - that almost any insect (with very few exceptions) native or not (even when that native can be found in the two states it is being moved between) would need an interstate movement permit from the USDA. Now, this is very difficult to enforce when dealing with natives but any exotic would be very easy for them to give fines for. Usually they will give you a warning on first offense, but the insects are still confiscated.

What I have heard some people say is that if said exotic is captive bred offspring that was born in the U.S. that it is ok to sell - this is false.
I have also heard that it is legal to own exotic Lucanids in California - this is false
I have also heard that if an exotic was imported by someone with a permit it is ok for the permit holder to sell to people without permits - also false

This should cover all of the main points and hopefully clear up some of the mixed messages (just for information I hold three permits and have contacts at both the USDA and FWS)

Hope this helps,
Steven

 
Beetle-Experience said:
 (just for information I hold three permits and have contacts at both the USDA and FWS)
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Steven,

Thanks for the information! This is really helpful.  Since you have multiple permits I'm guessing you're familiar with the process. Is it possible to get these permits as a hobbiest?

What sorts of requirements need to be met in order to qualify for a permit?

Best regards,

Joe

 
the_cream_man said:
Steven,

Thanks for the information! This is really helpful.  Since you have multiple permits I'm guessing you're familiar with the process. Is it possible to get these permits as a hobbiest?

What sorts of requirements need to be met in order to qualify for a permit?

Best regards,

Joe
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If I may, from what I've gathered by myself and from what I've heard, it is very difficult for independent hobbyists to get proper permits for exotic beetles, and regulated ones are even more difficult. You need sufficient containment and have to be able to show that the beetles can't escape, you have to be inspected by APHIS, all kinds of hoops to jump through that make it exceptionally hard for people who don't work with a species in a lab zoo or museum setting to get permits for regulated species. To a degree I can see why, but it really does hurt to see those Cetonischema speciosa "for sale" ads on here, and know I won't be able to own a few

 
QuissettHouse said:
If I may, from what I've gathered by myself and from what I've heard, it is very difficult for independent hobbyists to get proper permits for exotic beetles, and regulated ones are even more difficult. 
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Does this include domestic species though?  I wouldn't even try to get a permit for an exotic but would really like to get some beetles like D.tityus or L.elaphus

 
the_cream_man said:
Does this include domestic species though?  I wouldn't even try to get a permit for an exotic but would really like to get some beetles like D.tityus or L.elaphus
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For native species you technically need one to move them interstate, even if they're already established in the states you're moving them to. However it is nigh impossible to enforce so you could buy either species without any worry whatsoever if you so wished. So it doesn't really matter that you are SUPPOSED to have them

 
QuissettHouse said:
For native species you technically need one to move them interstate, even if they're already established in the states you're moving them to. However it is nigh impossible to enforce so you could buy either species without any worry whatsoever if you so wished. So it doesn't really matter that you are SUPPOSED to have them
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I understand that but if it were possible to actually get the permits as a hobbiest I'd rather do so.  I'd like to eventually breed enough beetles where I could sell some larvae and don't want to feel sus about it.

 
the_cream_man said:
I understand that but if it were possible to actually get the permits as a hobbiest I'd rather do so.  I'd like to eventually breed enough beetles where I could sell some larvae and don't want to feel sus about it.
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I don't see why such a permit wouldn't be possible to attain for a hobbyist. That would be the 526 if my memory serves me correctly. However, while I'm sure everyone can get behind doing things perfectly legally, if you're bent on staying that way, you would only be able to sell to hobbyists who have the permits too, which constitutes a significantly smaller population. And were everything enforced you could get in trouble for selling to people without the proper paperwork. A similar issue would arise if you were to buy from someone who is selling without paperwork. You likely wouldn't get in trouble but the bugs would be confiscated and you probably wouldn't see your money back. Fortunately this doesn't happen since it's not really a huge issue and as such is not enforced at all. So the effort is fantastic, and I completely understand where you're coming from, but ultimately there's no real point to it. At some point you'll end up breaking from that legitimacy and it'll just be a bunch of effort you went to for the same outcome of just ignoring the requirements. Sorry if that does little to ease your concern, but I honestly wouldn't sweat it

 
Beetle-Experience said:
This should cover all of the main points and hopefully clear up some of the mixed messages (just for information I hold three permits and have contacts at both the USDA and FWS)
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I was not aware you had your own permits. The USDA cannot give specifics, so I knew there were a few other hobbyists with permits but was not sure who they were. 

the_cream_man said:
Steven,

Thanks for the information! This is really helpful.  Since you have multiple permits I'm guessing you're familiar with the process. Is it possible to get these permits as a hobbiest?

What sorts of requirements need to be met in order to qualify for a permit?

Best regards,

Joe
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I personally have five valid PPQ 526 permits, and the requirements vary based on the species authorized on the permit. The requirements are conveyed in the permit conditions that you must agree to in order to have the permit granted. This is usually done online with the ePermits system, where you can submit applications/renew permits, respond to messages, such as the permit condition review, and keep copies of your permits. Here is a link on how to setup the account: https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/resources/sa_epermits/eauth-epermits. (Note: you will need the "Verified Account" in order to submit permit applications.)

QuissettHouse said:
If I may, from what I've gathered by myself and from what I've heard, it is very difficult for independent hobbyists to get proper permits for exotic beetles, and regulated ones are even more difficult. You need sufficient containment and have to be able to show that the beetles can't escape, you have to be inspected by APHIS, all kinds of hoops to jump through that make it exceptionally hard for people who don't work with a species in a lab zoo or museum setting to get permits for regulated species. To a degree I can see why, but it really does hurt to see those Cetonischema speciosa "for sale" ads on here, and know I won't be able to own a few
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You make a distinction between exotic beetles and "regulated species" that does not really exist. All exotic beetles are regulated, except for Goliathus sp. and dung beetles, and while some species pose more of a risk, such as longhorn beetles, there is not really a strict dichotomy between "safe" and "regulated" species. Depending on the local climate of the facility requesting the permits, the main, local agricultural products in the area around the facility, and other factors, the risk a certain species could actually pose can vary greatly. 

the_cream_man said:
I understand that but if it were possible to actually get the permits as a hobbiest I'd rather do so.  I'd like to eventually breed enough beetles where I could sell some larvae and don't want to feel sus about it.
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I personally have the permits for both of the US-native Dynastes species and for Megasoma sleeperi and punctulatus. I have not pursued the permits for stag beetles yet because Lucanus elaphus is so plentiful in my area, but they should granted easily as well. I even have the cactus longhorn authorized without a containment facility, so I cannot imagine a native lucanid would require a containment facility. 

Here are links to my primary two permits that deal with hobby species. 

https://themantismenagerie.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/permit-1-redacted-redacted.pdf

https://themantismenagerie.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/permit-2-redacted.pdf

(The second permit has a number of unnecessary species on it because it was granted before a number of roach species were deregulated.)

 
The Mantis Menagerie said:
I personally have the permits for both of the US-native Dynastes species and for Megasoma sleeperi and punctulatus. I have not pursued the permits for stag beetles yet because Lucanus elaphus is so plentiful in my area, but they should granted easily as well. I even have the cactus longhorn authorized without a containment facility, so I cannot imagine a native lucanid would require a containment facility. 
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Thanks, this is really helpful!  I have a few questions: it looks like maybe you were able to get these permits because you have an educational business, would getting permitted without a reason negatively impact me? Also, from what I can tell you can't sell any extras you might have, is that true/do you know if it would be harder to get if I wanted to sell?

Also, are you glad you got permits or do you agree with the others that it's an unnecessary formality that would only get you in more trouble if you did something wrong?

 
The Mantis Menagerie said:
You make a distinction between exotic beetles and "regulated species" that does not really exist
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That's a good point, I should have said, there are some species that APHIS lists as of particular concern as plant pests. That's more what I meant, and from what I've gathered they're even more difficult to get your hands on than exotic dung beetles, stags, etc. Goliath beetles were removed from the list because of their diet, but they were previously practically unavailable to the hobbyist. That's why its a lot more feasible to import lucanids than cetoniids. APHIS isn't as concerned with them. At least, that's my understanding. It would sound that you know more than I do, and that was just how I read it. Thanks for correcting me on that!

the_cream_man said:
it's an unnecessary formality that would only get you in more trouble if you did something wrong?
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Also I wouldn't say that it would get you into more trouble if you do something wrong, since nobody will even notice if you do, much less care. My point was that if you're going to go to all the trouble to get the permits to do it properly, and sell to someone without them (which is a very likely outcome), then you've defeated the purpose of getting the permits to begin with. You can still do it, and no matter what you won't get in trouble, it's just unnecessary work if you ask me. Totally up to you though!

 
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Interesting to see this topic here as well as on lepidoptera sites, the rules are the same. Interstate movement of species requires a permit, even if those species

are native to both locations. Most people using the typical trading sites for lepidoptera have their own ideas about the validity of those regulations, it really

depends on how much shipping a person does, most commited dealers in the states follow the regs. 

Of course, it's a choice, and carries risk, just like speeding in your car. I have spoken to only one person that ever was caught by the feds, he did not allude to what his fine was,

I have spoken with another trader who knew several persons who got caught importing exotic beetles, I think he mentioned probation and 6 figures. I assume this was

some mail order thing from those tempting foreign sites.

 
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