Prolapsed Gut?

PowerHobo

PowerHobo

Chalcosoma
deep sigh

Ok, so I've had 2 more deaths, both of a Dynastes sp using oak flake from BiC (which I do not think is the cause or even related). Both of these deaths have involved the larvae surfacing and just hanging out there until death, like my other deaths, but both of the larvae have what looks like a prolapsed gut. Unfortunately, I didn't think to get pictures. It's the same translucent white/veiny/black color their gut normally is, but it is squishy/deflated (unlike the rest of the body), significantly thinner than the rest of the body, and about the length of the last body segment. With minimal effort it can be pushed back in through the normal anal slit.

After pushing this prolapsed bit back into the body of the first larva I discovered a very dry/hard frass pellet that seemed to be stuck to something and took some effort to remove.

Anyone have experience or thoughts with this? This is two in a row of the same species, and in the same manner, so my curiosity is definitely piqued.

 
It sounds like maybe the grubs werent eating, idk what a prolapsed gut means, but if the abdomen was squishy it sounds like the grubs werent eating, that would also explain them coming to the top of the substrate. I think the best thing to do would be to try adding some different components to the substrate (rotten leaves, etc) since theyre dynastes species, which eat both leaves and wood. Another thing you may want to consider is getting new/ different substrate (Ive got no problem with substrate from peter, but something may have happened to it after you got it) and maybe even different types of wood.

Hope this helps,

Stepp

 
Oh, well thats definitely new to me, do you check on them often? And when you do, how much do you compact the substrate?

 
You probably know this but just in case.

What kind of substrate was the previous owner feeding the larvae? Larvae get used to certain substrate and sometimes they need a little bit of a transition period to get used to the new substrate. Every substrate is different even if they are both flake soil. Different types of wood, different brands, different fermentation process, etc. I try to generally only change half of the substrate unless I know there is something wrong with it. Have you talked to the seller about any possible reasons why? Each species is slightly different and someone who has been breeding a particular species for many generations will know the little nuances that can make a big difference.

 
Roaches ain't grubs, but assumptions are safe to make since prolapse is a "general" problem potentially affecting all insects. https://www.roachcrossing.com/care-guides/ says:

Organ prolapse

Severity: severe

Causes: Unknown, viral infection, physical trauma

Treatment: lethal in most cases; euthanize

I would just follow the advice of the other beetleforumers, do a general checkup to make sure nothing obviously suspicious ("a fungus has bursted from grub 1's head capsule!") is going on, and hope for the best.

Prolapses are one of the more mysterious ailments. With the current primitive state of American dynastine rearing technologies, we can only cross our fingers...

 
PowerHobo said:
deep sigh

Ok, so I've had 2 more deaths, both of a Dynastes sp using oak flake from BiC (which I do not think is the cause or even related). Both of these deaths have involved the larvae surfacing and just hanging out there until death, like my other deaths, but both of the larvae have what looks like a prolapsed gut. Unfortunately, I didn't think to get pictures. It's the same translucent white/veiny/black color their gut normally is, but it is squishy/deflated (unlike the rest of the body), significantly thinner than the rest of the body, and about the length of the last body segment. With minimal effort it can be pushed back in through the normal anal slit.

After pushing this prolapsed bit back into the body of the first larva I discovered a very dry/hard frass pellet that seemed to be stuck to something and took some effort to remove.

Anyone have experience or thoughts with this? This is two in a row of the same species, and in the same manner, so my curiosity is definitely piqued.
Click to expand...
Where, I live, there aren't many bess beetles--not really any, in fact, but this summer, since I traveled, I tried to raise one. Little did I know that there were tiny coral colored mites feeding on the grub, and I also noticed it's abdomen shrinking. Also, it seemed like the insides (?) of the grub began to come out, little by little--probably what it had digested. I couldn't really have done anything, anyhow, as I only had a 3 inch sauce cup, and we were traveling constantly--sad but true...btw, if anyone has any ideas on the species of the mites, pls let me know--i dun have any pics as this was during the summer. Next time, I should prob bake the substrate...

 
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Stag Beetles said:
Where, I live, there aren't many bess beetles--not really any, in fact, but this summer, since I traveled, I tried to raise one. Little did I know that there were tiny coral colored mites feeding on the grub, and I also noticed it's abdomen shrinking. Also, it seemed like the insides (?) of the grub began to come out, little by little--probably what it had digested. I couldn't really have done anything, anyhow, as I only had a 3 inch sauce cup, and we were traveling constantly--sad but true...btw, if anyone has any ideas on the species of the mites, pls let me know--i dun have any pics as this was during the summer. Next time, I should prob bake the substrate...
Click to expand...
The thing is, mites are highly diverse; since red is a very common mite color, I doubt that even an expert could help you
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. Also, phoretic or commensal mites may be confused for parasitic ones, so things get rather complicated.

I suggest you look at Orin's Ultimate Guide if you have it, because there is a small bessbeetle care/captive breeding section in the back. In it, one thing he mentions is that larvae are sensitive to handling and may die if touched.

I think that the event you observed was not a prolapse, but something else. Many insects will regurgitate/defecate when frightened, and I can think of a number of other possibilities, including improper digestion due to poor care, constipation, etc. Hopefully you can succeed if you catch any adults in the future!

Also, if you ever find yourself in a troublesome insect-related situation in the future, I advise searching technical papers on rearing that species or its relatives (the closer the better, though advice from the same taxonomic family is usually still surprisingly useful). Luckily, Odontotaenius disjunctus ​seems to be well-studied for an insect, and laboratory rearing has occurred.
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Happy to help!

(in all honesty, I actually sit around beetleforum and bugguide all day waiting (im)patiently for such opportunities to appear)

 
Garin said:
You probably know this but just in case.

What kind of substrate was the previous owner feeding the larvae? Larvae get used to certain substrate and sometimes they need a little bit of a transition period to get used to the new substrate. Every substrate is different even if they are both flake soil. Different types of wood, different brands, different fermentation process, etc. I try to generally only change half of the substrate unless I know there is something wrong with it. Have you talked to the seller about any possible reasons why? Each species is slightly different and someone who has been breeding a particular species for many generations will know the little nuances that can make a big difference.
Click to expand...
I always make sure to order some of the substrate along with any new larvae, and when adding is required I'll usually do a "shake sift" to separate and remove frass, then half-and-half the new and old sub so the larvae can transition slowly (same with changing a dog's food type). I did ask the seller on these and unfortunately, they said it's the first time they're hearing it as well. They were super nice about it and are sending me a couple free replacements even though I said it was fine and I know the problem was most assuredly on my end (or just bad luck).

Interestingly enough, all of my grub deaths have been older grubs in larger containers. My 50 or so D tityus hatchlings are all thriving in their super-small little spaces in the divided parts containers I have them in. About half of them are already fat L2s, so I guess I can't call them hatchlings anymore.

 
Stag Beetles said:
Where, I live, there aren't many bess beetles--not really any, in fact, but this summer, since I traveled, I tried to raise one. Little did I know that there were tiny coral colored mites feeding on the grub, and I also noticed it's abdomen shrinking. Also, it seemed like the insides (?) of the grub began to come out, little by little--probably what it had digested. I couldn't really have done anything, anyhow, as I only had a 3 inch sauce cup, and we were traveling constantly--sad but true...btw, if anyone has any ideas on the species of the mites, pls let me know--i dun have any pics as this was during the summer. Next time, I should prob bake the substrate...
Click to expand...
The mites sound like symbiotic mites, apparently Bess beetles have several such mite species associated with them, so I highly doubt they were the cause of it's death.

It's more likely that it died because of isolation from it's colony, as these beetles are subsocial, and the larvae seem to need a little bit of the adult's frass in their diet. Some sources also state that the adults chew the rotten wood up for the larvae to eat, so again, they probably really need to be kept with adults to survive. Additionally, they are very sensitive to high temperatures, as heat can kill their gut symbiotic bacteria, so if you kept it too warm that could have killed it too.

 
Hisserdude said:
Additionally, they are very sensitive to high temperatures, as heat can kill their gut symbiotic bacteria, so if you kept it too warm that could have killed it too.
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Not sure if this part is specific to Bess beetles, but I can't help but wonder if this was the source of some of my issues. it's been a couple weeks since I installed a portable AC in my beetle room, and no problems with any other larvae so far. 80f seems to have simply been too warm for them. I've read several beetle keepers successfully rearing their larvae at a steady 78f, but they're also working with tropical exotics, so I'm sure their needs are different.

So just due to the general time constraints of adult life, the second little guy with the prolapsed gut ended up left alone long enough to basically fully decompose in the substrate, and when digging around I found a decent sized scrap of plastic very near to where I located its head capsule. It appears to be part of a plastic bag, and I can't help but wonder if I accidentally introduced it or it clung to the container due to static when I was first filling them with sub, and the larvae ingested it, leading to the apparent prolapses and deaths. I'm admittedly grasping at straws, but the plastic's location was definitely suspicious to me.

 
PowerHobo said:
Not sure if this part is specific to Bess beetles, but I can't help but wonder if this was the source of some of my issues. it's been a couple weeks since I installed a portable AC in my beetle room, and no problems with any other larvae so far. 80f seems to have simply been too warm for them. I've read several beetle keepers successfully rearing their larvae at a steady 78f, but they're also working with tropical exotics, so I'm sure their needs are different.

So just due to the general time constraints of adult life, the second little guy with the prolapsed gut ended up left alone long enough to basically fully decompose in the substrate, and when digging around I found a decent sized scrap of plastic very near to where I located its head capsule. It appears to be part of a plastic bag, and I can't help but wonder if I accidentally introduced it or it clung to the container due to static when I was first filling them with sub, and the larvae ingested it, leading to the apparent prolapses and deaths. I'm admittedly grasping at straws, but the plastic's location was definitely suspicious to me.
Click to expand...
Ultimate Guide says: Dynastes larvae frequently chew up but rarely ingest plastics, although it is still best to be cautious

 
Your container is closed. Drill some holes on it. They are going to the top because there is air. They die because of a reason. Drill some holes for air. I learned from experience. Just because they are larvae does not mean they do no want air. If there is no air, they will go the top and will stop eating and die.

 
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